Waka Flocka Flame, Celph Titled, and The Tim Dog Effect

(Or How We Can Learn To Stop Worrying And Bump The Bomb)…

Waka Flocka Flame “Live By The Gun”

Celph Titled “Eraserheads”

Producer/rapper/author J-Zone1 helmed a short-lived but excellent blog over at Dante Ross’s site; his writing is filled with praise for “guilty pleasures,”  rappers whose simplistic or seemingly ignorant approach results in their absence from high-minded discussions of great music. J-Zone asserts that personality is key and the right combination of charisma, humor, and eccentricity is often more memorable than artistic pretense or technical prowess. He reasons that certain “bad” rappers are able to infuse their personality into the very structure of a song; their gritty deliveries, unsophisticated lyrics, and bizarre ad-libs function as additional instrumentation; violent and/or profane content adds a visceral thrill.2 I call this “The Tim Dog Effect” after the  Bronx emcee of “Fuck Compton” fame that J-Zone praises for his ability to turn his bare-bones rhymes and even a series of grunts3 into a great song.

Critics that accept The Tim Dog Effect as one valid indicator of musical quality are better able to objectively assess a rapper’s work than those that zealously insist upon the adoption of universally applicable rubric for judging lyrics4 or who denigrate entire discographies at the first hint of objectionable content. Listeners can and should be guided towards objective methods of understanding and appreciating rap; this must logically entail discussions that focus on issues of context, symbolic representation, and  implication.5 Criticism that places well-executed vocals in high regard and lauds artists for their responsiveness to the listener’s desire to be entertained should not be marginalized.6 Two recent releases that I’ve come to enjoy after a period of initial skepticism, Celph Titled and Buckwild’s Nineteen Ninety Now and Waka Flocka Flame’s Flockaveli, epitomize the Tim Dog Effect but the online reception cultures7 surrounding these albums are hesitant to treat them as such, in effect underrating their finer points.

Nineteen Ninety Now and Flockaveli are certainly aesthetically different. The former sees Celph Titled rhyming over previously unused Buckwild beats from the ’94-’95 era, the very epitome of that ol’ boom-bap. The latter has Waka Flocka Flame paired with decidedly modern rumbling “post-crunk”8 beats courtesy of Lex Luger and others. It is not entirely accurate to characterize these albums as a pair of diametric opposites, however. Aside from their shared fascination with meat-and-potatoes gun violence and raunchy sex talk, both albums express clear disdain for prevailing mainstream music trends, articulate a pro-indie ethos, and are consciously interested in reviving and revamping the music of a past era.9 The problem is that the increasing fragmentation of hip-hop fans into regional/sub-genre networks makes it impossible for all of us to sit together at one table and enjoy some hardcore, no-frills, menacing rap shit. That’s wack because I remember when hard-rocks and college kids were both going crazy for “Rebel Without A Pause” and again, almost inexplicably for  Bonecrusher’s “Never Scared” so many years later.

The online reviewers, almost as if collaborating on wartime propaganda, conjure up a gulf between imagined antagonistic audiences. These mutually reductive generalizations are formulated from a distance, in a manner that is cold and indirect. The reviewers that praise one album have generally not reviewed or otherwise acknowledged the other  but in defending their respective choices they almost always resort to the construction of a hateful straw man adversary. Waka’s advocates burn Method Man in effigy as a catch-all representative for any backpackers who might foolishly deride him for lyrical simplicity10, claim that it is currently fashionable among purists to hate on his music11, and imply that the record’s detractors are uptight over-cultured killjoys.12 Celph’s supporters, on the other hand, shower us with unending praise for spry salt-of-the-earth old schoolers who will instinctively trot out to greet this album with their tongues hanging out in true Pavlovian fashion; Nineteen Ninety Now is frequently credited for reviving the entire genre from the death spell inflicted on it by the young and/or ignorant.13

Yet for all these daring preemptive strikes these reviewers are by and large chasing windmills; people who reviewed these albums rarely exhibit the extreme form of snobbish elitism or the mindless uncultivated adolescent conformity caricatured in the defensive appraisal of these artists.14 Reviewers, whether pro or am, chiefly stick to celebrating Celph’s racy punchlines, Buckwild’s boom-bap, Waka’s snarly shouts and ad-libs, and Lex Luger’s post-crunk greatness. Unfortunately, this cautious, apologetic approach fails to draw attention to the aspects of these albums that make them worth revisiting in the same way as vintage Tim Dog material. Flockaveli is not all menace and frivolity; there’s a lot of disconcerting paranoia and alienation on display as well.15 “Fuck Dis Industry”16  is one of the strangest, most compelling rap songs I have ever heard; the fact that it makes sense in light of Flaka’s influences does not make his hazy whispered stream of consciousness any less creepy or uncomfortably funny. This is not your average rap album.

Psychodrama and idiosyncrasy are everywhere apparent on Nineteen Ninety Now as well. Where Flaka’s lyrics are sparse and dwarfed by his ad-libs, leaving much to the listener’s imagination, Celph Titled stomps on almost every single available second of music. He thunders over Buckwild’s beats in a way that is not reminiscent of  O.C. or anyone. At every turn Celph assures us that his penchant for guns and dirty sex is an indisputably authentic part of an admittedly contrived persona; he spares no detail in describing exactly how he navigated his way from obscurity to minor commercial success. His surreal punchlines test your ability to suspend disbelief but any artistic mystique is crushed under the weight of frank autobiography. Waka sheds light on his interior self in very small but jarringly potent doses while Celph talks your ear off. In both cases I felt as if I was cornered by two very different but equally unruly party guests, only to soon realize that I needed to look no farther than the background music for respite. The fictive pasts that these rappers long for is one in which music brought people together in cramped, tense spaces, if only to fight or stare each other down disapprovingly;17  it’s a shame that the discussion surrounding the two albums is so coldly passive-aggressive.

Let’s all lighten up and agree to enjoy the tracks at the top of the post for what they are.18  — Thun

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  1. Read about his upcoming book in his guest blogger entry. []
  2. Read his post “Great ‘Bad’ Rappers” in which he explains his appreciation for the unorthodox styling of Tim Dog, but also the Disco Rick, Project Pat, and Group Home’s Malachi The Nutcracker. []
  3. Check “Dogs Gonna Getcha” if you don’t believe me. []
  4. This usually amounts to drooling over multisyllabic rhyme schemes or the use of Latinate vocabulary. []
  5. Additionally, coarse content should not be equated to the unironic advocacy of criminal or licentious behavior, and it should be stressed that all rap does not have to function as a forum for enlightenment or the promotion of moral uplift to be considered good. []
  6. This is not to suggest that the Tim Dog Effect trumps every other measure of quality, or that lyrical complexity or technical virtuosity should not be lauded. It is also my view, and I think J-Zone is probably in agreement, that not every rapper deemed mediocre is somehow a misunderstood genius in the mold of Tim Dog. There is something else, perhaps a mysterious set of traits that have not yet been adequately described by critics, that makes such artists transcendent. Until a reliable rubric arrives, it’s ultimately subjective. []
  7. For the sake of my sanity, I confined my analysis mostly to reviews and blog posts presented as reviews; YouTube comments reside in a dark corner of the earth I’m not yet ready to travel. []
  8. In the comments section of his review “Flockaveli’s A Post-Crunk Masterpiece” critic Brandon Soderberg explains the term “post-crunk”: “Post-crunk’s a cheap term, but it’s also accurate. This is music building on the sounds and mainstream acceptance of “Get Low” and “Knuck If You Buck”. It wouldn’t exist without Crunk, but it’s very much transcending it.” I’m convinced enough to use the term here but since this kind of music is not my area of expertise, I can be persuaded otherwise. []
  9. The difference being of course that Celph’s era is fifteen years ago while Waka has to contend with the post-millenial acceleration of culture and appear most obviously nostalgic for Lil’ Jon’s 2002 heyday. However, at least one reviewer was shrewd enough to note that Waka’s style “is a fusion of MC Ren (sturdy gangsta mindset, infrequent, but always obtuse punchlines,) DMX in his prime (raw anger,) a younger Busta Rhymes (high octane energy) and Flavor Flav (hypeman adlibs, technically incompetent, unspeakable charisma.)” Most other reviewers only made reference to Lil’ Jon and Tupac. []
  10. See “Method Man overlooked an important point…” []
  11. “It is in vogue [sic] hate on Waka Flocka Flame, especially if you consider yourself a fan of ‘real’ hip hop” and “Anyone coming to this record expecting wordplay, or criticizing it for its lack thereof, is missing the point completely.” More of the same here, here, and here. []
  12. Check “I would never put ‘Flockaveli’ in my CD player if I wanted to listen to music that was meaningful…happy…deep…political…spiritual…or…thoughtful” and ““His glaring lack of actual skill in the midst of phenomenal success however is a slap in the face of anyone who ever thought of this culture and its accompanying soundtrack as a real artform.” []
  13. Check “let this be your first hip-hop purchase in a minute, cuz this shit is exactly whats been missing for years”, and the same sentiment echoed over and over again. It’s kind of odd how these reviewers are insisting that an album rife with misogyny and gunplay is somehow a righteous representation of rap’s golden age … all of a sudden content doesn’t matter? []
  14. One great exception: the stridently negative review of Flockaveli found here. Quotables for days. Even the blog’s comments express shock that the reviewer even bothered with the write-up. But the the “Baracka Flocka Flames” spoof of “Hard In the Paint” has actually inspired more public outrage than Waka’s real music. []
  15. This post at Blatant Ineptitude does a better job of explaining what I mean. []
  16. Is a more backpacker friendly slogan possible? []
  17. The Vh1-spoofing video for Celph Titled and Buckwild’s “Mad Ammo” drives the point home with zero subtlety. []
  18. If we must mock some current shit, Joel Ortiz’s latest snorefest of a video is ripe for mockery. Or, just riff on how much you hate the new Nicki Minaj song with Eminem. []

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28 Responses to “Waka Flocka Flame, Celph Titled, and The Tim Dog Effect”

  1. done says:

    i never thought i woulda seen posts like this on this blog, good work man.

    yeh i dont think some people really fully understand their own standards they judge rappers by. a lot of times i see people differentiating between rappers using examples that are actually more like similarities once you get past first impressions. likeit really seems like people review these dudes without giving em multiple listens or even attempting to understand their appeal.

    of course your gonna think wakas albums shit if you dont really immerse yourself in his music or have suffecient familiarity with either his music or that of his peers/influences. if your coming straight from listening to some boom bap type stuff to that its gonna be a culture shock and the differences are gonna be all you notice for a while. context and sufficient research (like by actually listening to some music! not just googling their name) seems to be something a lot of these dude lack. like i wouldnt trust robbie from unkut’s review of flockavelli. but then again he wouldnt review it (at least not seriously, i think these reviews wouldnt be so bothersome if they all lightened up a bit), he understands his own taste, whereas a lot of em just assume theyr qualified to give a good review without considering why they would be.

    and it also seems like people look for things theyr used to expecting in different styles of rap and that the absence of them means its not good music, instead of just judging it on its own terms.

    iv only heard the odd tune from waka and celphs albums but i liked “them gun sounds” or whatever it was called, might dl em at some stage

  2. hl says:

    Another dope post. Good stuff.

  3. Teddy C.D. says:

    First–nice post. Second–Ironically, I don’t think Tim Dog should be lumped into that category of rappers only having the “Tim Dog Effect,” meaning they’re entertaining but can’t rhyme. Tim Dog is/was a good rapper, and Penicillin on Wax had more than a fair share of dope lyrics. He does tend to get repetitive and recycle similar rhymes and ad libs in a lot of his songs but he CAN rap (see: “I Get Wrecked” feat. KRS).

    • Thun says:

      “The Tim Dog Effect” as I interpreted J-Zone’s concept does not suggest that Tim Dog or anyone else can’t rhyme.

      • Teddy C.D. says:

        Didn’t J-Zone say something along the lines of “Tim Dog’s rapping is hilariously bad for ’91”? Or am I missing something?

        • Thun says:

          That doesn’t mean that J-Zone is suggesting that he can’t rhyme. J-Zone is saying that in comparison to say Rakim/Kane/G Rap/etc. his rapping is relatively lackluster, even terrible. But if you make that comparison t begin with, you’re missing the point of his appeal and approach, and you’ll probably make the mistake of misreading him. It’s a way of evaluating rap without resorting to fallacious extremes, as I see it.

  4. Koos-koose says:

    Hefty read, maybe a little too college essay for me, but good job. Kinda don’t understand the premise of the article though because from the handful of songs I’ve heard of Celph Titled, he seems very technical in terms of rap “skill”.. The songs I’ve heard him rap on, he seemed to display mostly clever/complex wordplay, lots of multi’s, wittyness and had an original sounding voice/flow. Rappity-rap nerds praise him and they are picky about who they think “rips it” and aren’t quick to give props to just any average joe. If people thought he was some kind of atrocious MC across the board, there wouldn’t be so many people heralding him as some kind of punchline savior. If I had a dime for everytime I saw one of his quotes as some kid’s signature on a rap forum, I could buy a Phantom. The thing is, Tim Dog and Waka Flocka would never bother putting that much thought/penmanship into their rhymes, so I don’t see how you’re lumping Celph in with them. Seems like a total opposite, in my eyes…maybe I haven’t listened to enough of the guy.. but it seems a little exagerrated to me to make this kind of statement. But the draw to his project for me is the Buckwild beats, so I will definitely be giving it a listen. I’d probably be all about Celph 5 years ago when I was more into the fun/battle-style hip hop music but nowadays I’ve been moving a little farther away from traditional hip hop unless it’s instrumental type stuff. All in all, good read, but I think its unfair to put Celph in this category. I mean, he’s a way better rapper than all 3 Beatnuts combined and nobody tried to analyze their shit like it was some kind of rap-paradox, right?

    • Thun says:

      Let me make something clear here, because I think I didn’t explain it well enough in the post:

      I am in no way, shape, or form making that claim that Tim Dog, Waka, or Celph-Titled are “atrocious” or “wack.” Quite the contrary.

      I am not saying that they are redeemed from wackness because they are entertaining, either.

      What I am saying is that these rappers are dope. You can appreciate the more if you free yourself from certain notions about how rap is supposed to sound, or what a rapper is supposed to do, or what constitutes good rapping. You do not have to resort to rehashing the tired claims of critics that apologize for a rapper’s idiosyncrasies or inability to meet certain criteria.

      I do not mean to burst your bubble, but the idea that Celph Titled is a lyrical/technical prodigy is a fringe belief. It may be popular on discussion boards where other rappers of his kind are hailed as deities for “multis” and “ill lyricals.” Anywhere else, you’ll see Celph Titled completely ignored or written off as another skill-deficient backpacker. What I’m saying is that Celph is just a good rapper, period. His album is good. It isn’t just adequate because Buckwild produced, he doesn’t get over because his voice is different or he has multisyllabic rhymes with punchlines. His album is great because it’s engaging, because of a combination of showmanship and personality that is constantly on display.

      The same is true for Waka. His album isn’t good just because of Lex Luger. It isn’t noteworthy just because the ad-libs are energized. There is personality infused into the music; this is a noteworthy accomplishment. In both Waka and Celph’s case, there is care put into the craft, beyond what critics give them credit for. There is no need whatsoever to judge Waka based on a rubric that valorizes “multis” and no need to weigh the merits of Celph’s performance based upon “swag” or whether or not his rims gleam. Both records are a ton of fun to listen to; this is by design and not by accident, these artists and their production teams are craftsman through and through.

      And for the record, there isn’t a single rapper mentioned here who is smoother or funnier or more engaging on the mic than JuJu circa the self-titled Beatnuts album. Check “Rik’s” joint if you don’t believe me.

      • Koos-koose says:

        Point understood a little better… But no bubble bursted here – I’m not a big Celph fan, all I did was point out what I see elsewhere about him and the good things I did notice about his MC’ing (see: “Celph Destruction” from the Bosshog Outlaws album). However I did get a chance to listen to the album now and even though I’m not into that style of rap, I don’t see where he has “skill-defincies”…I’m being objective here. I just think he gets a bad rap and I’m not sure why. If you could explain to me what skills he lacks, maybe I’d better understand your original point. IMO, he has the technical skills down to a tee (flow structure, multis, clarity) even moreso than I heard from him in the past. Now sure if you’re into “deep” rap or political shit, Celph ain’t gonna be your bag, but that has nothing to do with his technical skill. I mean, I’m reading this blog and I see stuff like Mayhem Lauren being propped but when I listen to one of his songs, I hear more of an unpolished MC with much less technical skill and not a very unique or powerful voice. Those things weigh-in heavy when I judge an MC. So I’m just trying to figure out what is valued as being “good” technical skill, with all cosmetic or superficial things aside. Maybe Mayhem Lauren isn’t being heralded as technically great either and I understand that is NOT what makes someone like a rapper, just as you have pointed out in this article. But I don’t see an analysis about the dichotomy of why he is dope on here, so I assume he’s just generally accepted.

        There’s a corner of the internet I never quite understand and it’s places where people go ga-ga over extremely boring MC’s like Roc Marciano or Black Milk and shun much more live and entertaining rappers. Myself, if it ain’t instrumental stuff or it ain’t “alternative” sounding stuff like Sage Francis, I’m not much into it. I used to be more of a traditional head, but got bored with traditional hip hop, which I never thought would happen. But I still recognize things going on in other sects of rap that I might’ve abandoned years ago. If anything, Celph reminds me of a Redman approach and you don’t see people trying to diffuse his technical skill. I don’t see much difference between the two aside from voice, and an article like this would never be written in regards to Redman, so it just all seemed out of place to me.

        Continue to elaborate… as I did enjoy the read and you should write more articles breaking things down like this from your opinion. I’d like to see something like this tap into breaking down the appeal of Atmosphere, Sage, Anti-Pop and things of the like…and how so many heads I know that came up on traditional shit somehow ended up being fans of more deep/poetic/creative music like myself.

        • Thun says:

          We’re moving pretty far off topic and I really don’t want to argue about subjective tastes here (the troy discussion forum is probably better suited to that), but I will clarify a few things:

          When I wrote “skill deficient” I was in sort of a rush but I wasn’t describing my opinion, just a general response to punchline-obsessive, multi-dependent rap, exemplified by Celph and his friends. Most people in the 30+ crowd, especially in the Northeast, who were raised on Rakim/KRS-One/BDK/G Rap, etc. hear rap like Celph Titled and just laugh. The “multi” obsessed rappers for all teir attempts to be technical, rarely come off as smooth or confident. They don’t ROCK IT the way their obvious influences do. So no skill-deficient, but just not a great all around rapper in the sense that many people have come to expect.

          That’s one difference between Redman and someone like Celph. Another is that Celph never lets a beat breathe, doesn’t make effective uses of pauses, overextends his punchlines, etc. Little things like that matter; it isn’t an axiomatic truth that he is a master of style. There’s a certain jai nai sais quoi that so-called “backpacker” or “underground” rappers lack in abundance. Celph has improved to a small degree in this regard, but what I’m arguing is that it is kind of pointless to compare him to say Nas on “Halftime” or Q-Tip on “We Can Get Down.” Celph doesn’t have that kind of presence, swagger, whatever. It is what it is. I don’t personally think he’s so technically adept as you describe, but again, it’s kind of beside the point, as that’s more the dominion of people like Black Thought and Mos Def and Twista, next to whom Celph would be indistinguishable from a very large number of soundclick rappers.

          Roc Marciano’s style is subtle but it’s far from boring, imo, but I’ve always been a fan of subtlety used correctly, which is another thing that backpack rap almost never gets right, imo.

          I’m not sure why you think that this article embraces some kind of dichotomous thinking about Celph – I’m really interested in pointing fans towards the attributes of his emceeing that I think are the strongest and that critics, including ones who hold him in high regard, overlook. If you want to go on thinking that he has the skills or mass appeal of Redman, that’s fine but I’m telling you that pretty much everyone I know who heard about the Buckwild collaboration immediately responded “Err, will there be an instrumental version?”

          And I have no idea why people flock to the likes of Sage Francis and Atmosphere, and I cannot even begin to comprehend why they are lauded as “creative.” You’ll have to go elsewhere to find answers to that, man, I don’t dig those artists AT ALL. No offense intended, I’m sure you have your own reasons for gravitating towards that, but those are artists that just don’t do it for me. Not because of whatever scene or label or whatever google keyword brings one to their music, just don’t like how they rock it (or don’t).

          As far as Meyhem Lauren, I disagree with your comment about his voice. It’s fairly distinctive and he puts it o great use. Also, the recent article I wrote about him makes a very specific case for appreciating his music that is not very different from what I wrote about Celph here.

          • done says:

            when are people gonna stop using words like “multis” and “technical ability” in discussions on rap? rakim wasnt great because he decided to start rhyming more than the last syllable of a bar, it was the way he did it. the trick isnt in making your rhymes more complicated, anyone with sufficient fa,miliarity with rap and a decent sense of rhyme can do that, its to make it flow and engage the listener to the same standard of someone using a much less overwraught style well. i hear far more people with so-called “simple”( and this isnt a great description cos trust these dudes put just as much thought into their raps as anyone else, plus they can be “technical” when they want to be) rhyme patterns these days then a lot of these heralded underground dudes. j stalins a good example. or husalah.

            people think to much instead of trying to feel the music. what some people consider “interestin”g a lot of people consider over intellectualizing something thats supposed to be emotional. like the endless guitar solos/studio effects/indechipherable pretentious lyrics of the worst excesses of prog/psychadelic rock in the seventies (though im no expert admitadly)

            co-sign on atmospehere and sage francis, they negate any possibly interesting things they might have to say by having zero flow. i like celph cos hes funny and has charisma. i like roc marciano cos he has these really unique, creative rhyme patterns that just kind of snowball as the song goes on. and he says some really amazing, thought provoking stuff especially considering the narrow window of subject matter he generally speaks on. iv heard him mention mc eiht in interviews as an influnce and thats definitly true, you can hear it but i hear kool kieth and prodigy at their peaks also, especially prodigy in terms of saying amazing, really quotable shit.

            forgive me if im not being to clear, i just came straight from the pub.

          • Koos-koose says:

            Well in regards to your opinion on Atmosphere/Sage and the like, that’s why I’d like to see an article with your take on it. Coming from someone who doesn’t like that type of stuff at all would make for a great breakdown of an opposite opinion.

            As for Celph, I mean, I have ears.. I will stand by the point that I think he is given a bad rap. I think that opinion is more superficial on the terms that he came in the game during the 12″ backpack boom and people don’t want to desert their first impression of him, so it’s easy to just write him off and/or refuse to acknowledge his vast improvements. From what I’ve heard on this album, Celph definitely “ROCKS IT” and shows just the same finesse, “swagger” and presence that most of the greats you listed have. Celph’s confidence level when delivering the lyrics is at an all time high, you can hear it in his attack. I think whereas some of his peers can easily be attributed to not having “it” and forever being scorned into a backpack pit, Celph stands apart from them in the sense that he has something special that’s different from the other run-of-the-mill punchline multi-boys, that in my opinion, is VERY close to that of a Redman or even a Kool G. Rap (on technicalities alone – G. Rap doesn’t take many pauses either or let the beat breathe and you didn’t point that out as a flaw with him.)

            I understand that you’re pointing out the good qualities of this type of MC that is overlooked by stern critics, but I think at root, Celph is a technically skilled MC and it was unfair to base the article on the notion that he was some kind of weak-skilled mumble-mouth MC like Waka or Tim that somehow has jewels to be appreciated despite the “weaknesses”. I think more of it has to do with the fact that we hold greats like Redman or Q-Tip dear to our hearts and our first impressions of them can’t be tainted. No one is saying Celph is greater than these guys, but to say he poorly lacks what they have is definitely an exagerration. I listened to the Buckwild album and heard plenty of effective uses of pauses, flow changes and way more of letting the beat breathe than in Celph’s past attempts at being super-lyrical. It’s sometimes hard to get the first notion you have of a rapper out of your head, but I do think Celph should be acknowledged for improving leagues beyond his original stamp, even though you say he’s only improved in a minor way, which I think just goes back to you holding onto Celph’s origins/associations and first impressions.

            I never thought I’d write this much about “Celph Titled” of all people, but this could be an article about any MC that I feel is wrongly categorized albeit being praised at the same time for some aspects. To say I’ve become a bigger fan of Celph would be true if I were still into punchlines/multi’s and crazy characters, but it’s just not my thing. Just like I’m not interested in Redman or Kool G. Rap anymore. But I’m still a scholar of this artform and I do like to debate. I will check out the discussion forum you spoke of and continue to build on music with other intelligent minds.

          • done says:

            but i like most of the atmospheres beats iv heard tho. the kanye one was decent.

            but fuck people saying that they like these dudes cos they can “relate” to em more. theyr human beings, its not that hard, besides a lot of the people i hear diss rappers cos they curse to much, or are ignorant, or talk bout sex/money/violence too much enjoy violent films, love them some sex, love ignorant jokes and dance to the stupidest, least interesting music ever. aside from them people who dont like dancing, but theyr just clowns, probly dont like pussy either. they should just relax and quit taking this music shite so serious, its meant to be a laugh. or find another genre of music. or make your own.

            rap is what it is, quit trying to make it more “rock”-like or whatever, embrace it whole-heartedly or not at all

  5. done says:

    @Koos-koose before you reply, i didnt realise youd commented again, i havent read it yet and i assume your responding to thuns not mine but just in case, im not responding directly to anything youv said. im kinda drunk so just assuming im carrying on a seperate discussion or something. or probably something else

  6. done says:


    in respnse to what you said bout g rap defintly uses pauses and breath control, see thats the thing he uses it in a way that doesnt detract from his flow. i suspect (i havent listened to him enough to give a really educated opinion) that celph uses punch-ins and i would safely assume that he would not consider himself on the level of any of the names thun mentioned above for numerous reasons

    • Teddy C.D. says:

      With all due respect, in response to your comments above and from what I’ve seen you write recently, I find this extreme complacence with the status quo of hip-hop kind of annoying. Obviously certain rappers are easier to relate to or are more stimulating and interesting to listen to. If a rapper can’t even flow and is inarticulate when talking about drugs and violence, what the fuck makes that “artist” listenable? 1) He/She IS probably ignorant as fuck and 2) He/She sucks as a rapper. That has nothing to do with anybody hating rap music–and as a fan you shouldn’t support bullshit MCs. But if a rapper is entertaining, has a good ear for beats–and MAYBE, just maybe even gives you something thought-provoking or unique to listen to (obviously, as with all forms of music, this isn’t something that always happens)–then that rapper is worth hearing. But saying “rap is what it is” and that we should “embrace it whole-heartedly or not at all” makes absolutely no sense. Not even rock fans embrace all forms of rock music or all rock artists–sorry, you brought up the comparison.

      • done says:

        to be honest, based on what you just wrote, i dont really understand wehere we disagree for the most part. i re read your comment so maybe you needa word it differently or something.

        but with regards to what i said about when i said “embracing it wholeheartedly” or whatever, i think maybe i should have been clearer in what i meant. people should embrace all STYLES of rap and make a genuine attempt to listen to plenty of different approaches to those styles if they consider themselves to be true fans of this rap shit. to neglect whole areas of rap based on knee-jerk reactions devoid of genuine analysis is the type of lazy shit that outsiders do. the reason blueprint 3 sucked isnt cos jay z did some euro-synth-rave rap shit or tried to do some boring old man music, its because he didnt do it WELL. the only reason id hate when a rapper jumps on the bandwagon and has songs for the clubs/ rap over beats from other reigons is if he didnt make a genuine attempt to create some good music up to a standard with his best work.

        in no way do i think rap is above criticism and if like you said you read my previous comments i think i should clarify something – the thing i dislike isnt rappers or whoever dissing sucka emcees its them dissing what they dont understand, or even attempt to. i think the problem isnt in people dissing the “status quo”, because that can be a very good thing and is very important to the healthy development of hip hop,
        but that they dont seem to honestly try to understand what exactly it is about the rappers they diss that makes them “bullshit emcees”. in order to properly question something you have to question yourself to find out why you honestly like something. the reason the standards of what made a good rapper was widely agreed (more or less) in the eighties was probably more to do with the less variations on rap music that existed at the time, at least compared to now. the more diverse it became, the more open-minded you had to be in order to be able to effectively sort the dope from the wack.

        in order to fully understand what makes a good southern emcee or west coast emcee or whatever it takes a lot of listening to southern/west coast rap. you cant judge southern rap by new york standards and vice/versa. i often find the only rappers from other regions that old-school boom bap heads respect are ones that dont particularly sound like where they come from

        but trust me man, i agree with you that people need to call out the bullshit when they see it. also i particularly hate when people bring in that “respect his hustle” bullshit, or “its not for me but it has its place” -just admit you dont understand it and dont offer your opinion until your in a better position to judge. i also cant stand when people bring numbers into it, were music fans, not marketing commentators.

        hopefully youv a better idea of where im coming from, even if you dont agree.

        • Teddy C.D. says:

          Yeah, okay thanks for clarifying. You sound much more credible now–I have to agree with you for the most part there. Although, in regards to synth rave rap–I have rarely heard it done well. You know what though, you just made me realize something. I don’t think synth rap is to blame (but if we lump in autotune, then yes, autotune is annoying as fack)–I think a lack of hardhitting sample-based beats DUE TO the prominence of synth rap is why so many old school heads find it hard to like this era of rap music. Thoughts?

          • done says:

            yeah your probably right about that there definitly needs to be more of a balance, tho sample clearance and a relatively slow rate of innovation in how people use samples now as opposed to way back when play their part too i think.

            but i never understood the need for there to be such a separation between samble and synth-based rap beats, especially now. obviously both rose to prominance in places where it was largely either one or the other, but why cant both be used together as tools in making a song, along with other instruments? people have been doing this, like even the people held up as the predominant “keyboard beat” producers like timbo or the neptunes use samples on occasion, but its never seemed to become as big a style as it could be. some people lately who have been using this approach well are block beataz and dj fresh and the whole shebang (id reccomended you check out their work, id say itd appeal to an old school head, dj fresh and em especially)
            music needs to evolve in order to stay creative.

            a good thing to keep in mind (a lot of people are aware of this but seem to gloss over it or something when discussing modern rap) is that raps timeline doesnt simply go from the old sample-based days to the modern keyboard sound. long before rappers had samples their beats were made with backing bands, often using synths eg: “the message” and electro/synth type shit was also really popular like mantronix, whodini (theres heaps more but im no expert)

            i hate to repeat myself, but i really think the main problem with people being unappreciative of modern rap is an unwillingness to be more open-minded and try new things whole-heartedly. cos trust me, if they did, those same old school heads would realise theres plenty of synth beats that are hard as fuck.

            and yeh autotune sucks arse, even when used properly in its intended purpose. i fux wit sexual seduction tho. actually id be willing to bet its possible to use it in a listenable way, i wont hold me breath tho.

          • Teddy C.D. says:

            @ done: Oh yeah, of course electronic music has always been used in rap–Afrika Bambaataa, Sugar Hill Gang, etc. Of course, disco was also instrumental in rap’s early inception. But you can’t compare that type of early hip-hop to today’s synth rap; they sound completely different, not to mention R&B pop shit is thrown onto every hook nowadays. But yeah, there is always an exception, and some synth beats CAN be done well.

  7. Thun says:

    Yep, discussion is now going in circles and I’ve officially run out of different ways to state my points which are still being misconstrued.

  8. Bill says:

    how could you even compare the two? you are a disgrace. Celph Titled is god. Waka Flaka Fag sucks ass. FUCK MAINSTREAM. if you dare post something as gay as this i will murder you.

    • Jack says:

      FINALLY someone points this out. why the fuck you would they compare them? Waka IS the fucking problem in mainstream music, and they are saying he complains about it on his album? what the fuck?

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